Angry MSR player email to EDGE Magazine

Taken from UK Edge Magazine - Issue 93 (January 2001).

MSR Developer Chat (from 2011)

In 2011, Bizarre Creations closed down along with their website and forum.  Shortly after, a new forum called 'Strange Developments' was created where ex-Bizarre Creations staff and fans hung out briefly.  The new forum wasn't around for long, probably due to the ex-staff finding new jobs and people just going their separate ways.  It was on this particular forum forum that I asked a question about MSR physics and ended up having correspondence with a staff member.  I haven't released it publicly until now (I've sent it to a few people privately over the years) however it's now a good time to do so.  

My questions/responses are in light blue and the staff replies are in yellow. Nothing said is 'industry sensitive'.

Firstly I'd like to give my condolences regarding the closure of Bizarre Creations. As I'm basically a retro gamer, I never experienced their later work (PGR3 onwards) but games like MSR, Fur Fighters and PGR1/2 were great titles and I'm glad to have played them. I hope everyone involved with Bizarre finds happiness in their new careers.

Here is an old Japanese promotional video for MSR: 

The last 5 seconds are the most interesting. Although this is an early version, the car gets serious air climbing the San Francisco hill! If any of the developers are watching, why were the cars grounded in the final version? It doesn't make MSR any less fun for me but it would be interesting to know the reasons why.

Finally I've know I've asked this before on Bizarre's own forum but did anybody take a copy of the old MSR rankings hosted on Dreamarena. I know it's a longshot as this service closed over 9 years ago but it would be great to see what lap times the best players achieved. I have already asked Sega but they are unable to help.

Many thanks in advance.

it kept us from having to solve various physics/collision problems at the time,e.g. what to do when the cars overturn..

The physics model used exaggerated moments of inertia to stylize the sliding behaviour. I figured it was a game about cornering,laptimes, driving on flat surfaces, not a stunt driving game with jumps etc so I approximated appropriately .. S.F. wasn't something I accounted for. Needed to ensure that physics/collision/AI update was always negligable CPU load compared to graphics, back on those machines the cpu spent most of its time transforming & clipping geometry..

Hi all, as I hadn't received a reply in nearly 3 months I thought no-one was able to answer my question. Just returned here now on the off-chance it had. :)

I appreciate the response, I always thought the reason for the lack of airbourne cars was down to the car manufacturers themselves. I guess you had responsibilty for the physics in MSR? If so I'd like to thank you as MSR has one of the most fun Time Attack modes I've ever played! I know it's probably not what you intended - after all MSR was meant to be all about the Kudos - however stripping the game down to just a fast car and course unlocks the games enduring appeal. It's the reason I'm still playing the game in 2011!

On a sidenote I think the handling in the demo version of MSR (found on the disk with the Official DC magazine) has more in common with PGR 1/2 than MSR itself!

MSR was also the reason I got my Dreamcast back online last year to upload/download ghost cars. I've written an FAQ, made some Youtube videos and even made a webpage that DC users can download my ghosts from. If you are interested the links are below:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/dreamcast/197914-metropolis-street-racer/faqs/60758 (some info outdated)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soKJIF7FEsA&playnext=1&list=PL24E648DEB802C6F6

http://msr.netii.net/ (Now Offline). 

PS I still have a working MSR watch that came with my first copy in November 2000:

RJAY63 wrote:

always thought the reason for the lack of airbourne cars was down to the car manufacturers themselves.

Now that you mention it, that was indeed the case. Justifies why I approximated it.

But san-fransisco came as a suprise and we didn't have time to change the game system - the game was already delayed. we could have done it (we had airborne in f197 and in a 3DFX tech demo we did after F1) but any change late on is bad.

RJAY63 wrote:

I guess you had responsibilty for the physics in MSR?...

I know it's probably not what you intended - after all MSR was meant to be all about the Kudos - however stripping the game down to just a fast car and course unlocks the games enduring appeal.

on the contrary, to me Kudos was an afterthought,

I got into doing driving games back in 1995 for 2 reasons [1] the fun physics of car handling and [2] the graphics engines on the then new 3d consoles & the associated tools for building tracks/scenery ... so thanks for appreciating the game boiled down just to the bits I did & that mattered to me :)

All old hat now. An arcadey-driving sim wont set the world alight in 2011 but I was coincidently doing another car physics model as part of my new experiments.

Hence the coincidence in seeing the old nostalgic posts. I dont remember all the numbers but I remember the formulas exactly and the reasoning behind it. But my focus remains on the search for new ideas ...

Thank you for your message. MSR's handling has a 'coin-op racer' feel and as a fan of titles like Daytona, Wangan Midnight MT and Outrun 2 SP it is something I appreciate. It's a lot more fun to drift in MSR than it is in the PGR games although PGR 1/2 had much better Kudos systems.

I still have the playable demo of MSR that came with the official DC magazine and think the handling here had more in common with PGR than the final version of MSR itself! For example in the demo, drifting could be instigated by releasing the accelerator; something you couldn't do in the final version of MSR but could do in the later PGR games. Do you know why this change happened?

Finally this is a longshot but do you have an archive of the old Dreamarena rankings for MSR, specifically Time Attack? I know it was possible to hack the VMU and alter times (so any ranking may be distorted) but it would be interesting to see what the best players achieved. I have already approached Sega but they said they are unable to help.

Thanks once again for a great game!

nope, dont have ANY old materials. all owned by others and lost.

I wish I had my old sourcecode, but by the letter of the law i can't. sold my soul there. Just memories of bits in my head.

>>"For example in the demo, drifting could be instigated by releasing the accelerator; something you couldn't do in the final version of MSR but could do in the later PGR games. Do you know why this change happened? "

now I dont remember specifically, but you're describing trailing throttle oversteer & load-transfer, i.e. the way the pitching affects grip front & back.

When i started with it realistic- producing the effect you describe - i usually got the feedback that it was too hard (or numerically unstable) :) so you put assists / clamps / tweeks in to make it easier (and more stable).

I might have endstopped it? i.e set an artificial limit between front & rear grip.

what i DO remember is that with load transfer in 3d physics the car could become quite unstable i.e. going over polygon bumps could de-stabilize it by throwing sudden shocks through the springs, spinning the car out because the front dug in or the back lifted off.

It changed alot regularly, fine line between 'too hard' 'too realistic' 'too fake' and 'fun'.

it was difficult to balance it so that it could both slide AND be controllable / catchable.

With F1, I had load transfer (&grip affected by wings) but NOT calculated though the actual 3d springs; with MSR it was true 3D physics, which i first did in a demo for 3dfx.

In later xbox/360 games, the world mesh could be smoother, and 60fps update=better springs. DC was just 200mhz with CPU moving every polygon so only a tiny fraction of that cpu is left for physics.. then 700mhz xbox with hardware TnL - much easier. then 3ghz xbox 360 'steamroller'. pgr 4 even moved physics onto spare cores. spoilt compared to the early days.

Even though more realistic there are still some weird effects in both games, the actual physics model did change, with different approximations.

>>"MSR's handling has a 'coin-op racer' feel and as a fan of titles like Daytona, Wangan Midnight MT and Outrun 2 SP it is something I appreciate. "

MSR is still based on slightly more realistic physics model but with stylized numbers, compared to daytona etc. sega games & other coin ops games often used 'pivot steering' (ridge racer =worst offender!) I think whereas mine were based on per-wheel forces. (i wouldn't criticize those amazing pioneering Sega coin-ops though! don't get me wrong there).

The so called 'coinop feel' was down to the car holding maximum grip past the limit & other assists over the real physics, wheras a real car loses grip when you slide, a greater tendancy to just spin out when you make a mistake.

I'm just dealing with this again this very minute, messing with the self-aligning-torque by a different method to try and make slides more holdable.

It is very nostalgic looking at the old videos, thanks for the uploads :)

Firstly thanks again for your interest in our old work . :)

I was looking at one of your comments "no more braking sliding more" and my memory might not be as good as I think, I seem to remember I might have actually INCREASED GRIP WHEN BRAKING, jogged by your comments.

My question is , could you confirm this for me ? hard to tell how. Let me know if you think thats the case from how you drive it, do you get a different cornering radius.. one might be able to measure it in video footage - horizon turn rate vs speedometer, accelerating vs braking

[i'd always wanted to leave physics-debug in with grip arrows etc as ingame option:) but there was no interest ]

In my postbizarre physics model, my rough values "by eye alone" gave me 2.5g cornering*(!!!) and I've just reduced it to 1.7 after actually looking at numbers.

But I'm thinking I have an instinctive preference for cars with >2g cornering and it wouldn't suprise me if thats what MSR was actually doing when you brake.

Why not increase grip ALL THE TIME? - because it gives you mad 0-60 times. my current virtual car is doing 0-60 in about 2 seconds. :)

I remember the amazing f355 having a feel of being able to hardly turn.

I came from the F1 game where cars can have 4g cornering due to downforce typically, so I was 'spoilt' :) and remember being shocked by realistic simple road cars that manage mere 1-1.3g cornering. boring..

Now with you talking about 'arcadey feel' that might be what did it more so than the 'extended peak grip'... its' a gratuitous Hack that enables people who dont like braking to get round corners.

I would like to be able to get an arcadey feel without needing such extreme measures as grip scale with braking .. I prefer increased grip all the time or adding virtual downforce.. ( a downforce that you preseve when going sideways)

I did get nostalgic after acti closure and looked at the whole of bizarre as one continuous act F1 onward. (its' so scary to see peeps calling F1,MSR 'retro games' - which they are now - because the whole 15 years was just one continous 'blur' for me)

Thanks for your reply. In the playable demo the normal brake has a limited role when cornering; it's really just used to slow your car beforehand. In the final version however, the best way to take a corner is to turn and brake together while alternating the throttle; if it's a sharp turn you may need to add a touch of handbrake or release the accelerator completely. The final version is certainly a lot easy to drive than the demo; you can compare the two videos for the same course below taking into account different cars were used in each:

Demo: 

Final (Retail Version):

Hope this helps... :)

Thanks for the info - that confirms it.

>>"the best way to take a corner is to turn and brake together while alternating the throttle"

- that 's the unintended consequence discovered by players of my increasing grip while you brake.

I did that to avoid that 'unable to turn' feeling that you get when you go from an F1 car to say an MX5 (which is what i'd basically done, F1->MSR). I'm still shocked by it when i play other 'realistic' style racers.

Alternating throttle&brake is really messy .. thats' not what I intended :(

Perhaps I should have put in mild F1 style downforce instead, exaggerated to kick in at low speeds.

Damn where's that time machine so I can go back and fix it!

1.5-2g cornering is still not as mad as 4g F1 but much more fun than reality. Reality is a bit crap usually, which is why we have games to escape with :)

Thanks for your response, glad I could help. On a side note you may wish to check out these links showing Bizarre doing some French TV spots for MSR (see my old blogpost 'MSR Early Videos' to view these).

 

MSR Widescreen Argument (Google Groups/Usenet Archive)

Original Google Groups/Usenet topic 
Staff comment in bold.  Main reply in yellow

Just a curious observation.

In the options screen for the multiplayer mode there is an option to set the
screen to a widescreen mode. This works well enough, giving the cars the
correct proportions when viewed on a widescreen tv.
Question is, why is this option not available in the single player mode?? As
it is you either have to have squat cars in widescreen mode or force the tv
into 4:3 ratio - what a waste!!

I guess that's a minor gripe considering all the stuff that this game does
do well, but it would have been nice, a la F355.

----

Messing around with the in-game camera options appears to change the field of
view, perhaps somewhere in there you can find a bodge that looks better in 16:9.

----

Bizzare Creations probably forgot to put it in around about the same
time they forgot to take out all the bugs that f*****g ruin the game.

----

There is a wide screen mode in there if you beat one of the special
races(cant remember which one sorry) you get widescreen option in the cheat
modes menu see Dave you instant gratification freak its in there you just
have to earn it also in the cheat menu (but unlocked seperatly) is the

sickening bubble mode and the very funny silly cheat

----

No, that's a joke, right? You have to earn widescreen? F**k me, do you have to earn sound?

---

I'm still laughing after reading your message :)

---

Its in there right after adjust camera in the cheat modes menu along with
force time and silly cheat.I am not the idiot who made it like that I am
just the guy who posted to tell that poor sod who can't figure it out where
it is complete the second special btw

I don't think he was having a go at you, just at the fact that you have to
'earn' something which should be standars in games. i.e. widescreen mode.
I have a widescreen TV and didn't see a WS mode and so assumed it didn't
have one.
Putting it in as a cheat seems a bit strange.

Good game all the same.

---

You access widescreen mode by doing the challenge which requires the mustang
car. The car can be accessed on a special challenge, I think it`s the
chapter with the vauxhall vx220 under the cover. Let me say that the ratio
looks right on a widescreen tv but it doesn`t show any more picture either
side, but cuts off quite abit top and bottom which defeats the point of
widescreen really.

---

Damn that. Just like that crap widescreen mode in fur fighters(same
creators).
MSR would look great in anamorphic widescreen :(
Ah well. The dc is not connected to my widescreen anyway...
That sony(!) 4:3 tv gives a much better image.

---

F.Y.I. the widescreen mode in Fur Fighters is true 16:9 widescreen with a
much wider viewing angle and not just cut off top and bottom.
Get your facts right next time.

---

It is anamorphic but just doesn`t look right with how much it has took of

the top and bottom

---

I'm sorry but it is not anamorphic widescreen.
It loses a lot of the resolution in fur fighters. Anamorphic widescreen is
without borders.
Get your facts right...

---

In 60Hz and widescreen settings on my Toshiba it's [Fur Fighters] certainly full 16:9
widescreen and without borders. Whether it's anamorphic or not, it looks
great. The real advantage of widescreen mode is for Fluffmatch where for 2
players the split screen is a vertical split, which I find much easier than
the non-widescreen mode horizontal split.

---

The Widescreen mode keeps everything at the same perspective, the screen
shows the same visuals height wise but there is extra width and a much wider
viewing angle with far more information at the side of the screen. And
anamorphic widescreen does have borders top and bottom on all standard TV's
and even (dependant on aspect ratio) small borders on Widescreen TV's. The
widescreen mode in Fur Fighters was added whilst checking it on a Sony
Widescreen TV to keep the aspect ratio as close as possible to widescreen
movies. The vertical resolution has to drop to do this as you have a maximum
horizontal resolution of 640, so the vertical dropped from 480 to 357 to
create the borders required to achieve a letterbox effect.

If you require any further information on this please contact me at this
address [email redacted]

Nick Wiswell
Associate Producer
Bizarre Creations

----

Wah ?! This is just nonsense, and shows they have no understanding of
widescreen TV standards or even what `anamorphic' means.

"The Widescreen mode keeps everything at the same perspective, the
screen shows the same visuals height wise but there is extra
width and a much wider viewing angle with far more information at
the side of the screen."

Fair enough. All OK so far.

"And anamorphic widescreen does have borders top and bottom on all
standard TV's and even (dependant on aspect ratio) small borders
on Widescreen TV's"

And now the confusion starts. He's muddled up widescreen movies with
widescreen TV. Wide TV has an aspect ratio of 16:9 (or 1.77:1).
Movies are typically either 1.85:1 or 2.35:1, so of course you're
going to get black borders somewhere (at the sides if you're watching
an old academy ratio film or 4:3 TV broadcast). 16:9 is a compromise.
He should be comparing with 16:9 TV broadcasts, which do exactly fill
the screen. (And watch out for those stupid 14:9 broadcasts which UK
broadcasters sometimes use to annoy everyone).

And the comment about anamorphic pictures having borders on a 4:3 TV
is just nonsense. The picture will fill the screen, but everything
will look tall and skinny as it has not been stretched out wide
enough when displayed.

"The widescreen mode in Fur Fighters was added whilst checking it
on a Sony Widescreen TV"

OK.

"to keep the aspect ratio as close as possible to widescreen movies."

Now why do they have to do that?

"The vertical resolution has to drop to do this as you have a
maximum horizontal resolution of 640, so the vertical dropped
from 480 to 357 to create the borders required to achieve a letterbox 
effect."

Aha. Here's why. They're using letterboxed 4:3 output and *not*
anamorphic. An anamorphic picture has exactly the same number of
lines as a standard 4:3 picture, but they are intended to be stretched 
further apart on a 16:9 display. The `pixels' (there aren't really any in 
an analogue broadcast) are *wider*, so your 640 pixels in each line are 
rectangular instead of square.
Sounds like they've been doing their testing with the TV's zoom mode
instead of stretch. Doh!

They should take a look at a game that does it properly (ie Wacky
Races, Rayman 2), or set up a DVD player by telling it that the TV is
widescreen and seeing what happens when they connect it to a 4:3 TV
(everything looks tall and skinny - or rather squashed in from the
sides), then maybe they'll understand what anamorphic means.

"If you require any further information on this please contact me at this
address [email redacted]
 
Nick Wiswell
Associate Producer
Bizarre Creations"

I can't be bothered.

Try starting here: http://www.dvdweb.co.uk/information/anamorphic.htm
(though they've assumed that 1.85:1 is the same as 1.77:1 - most wide
TVs have so much overscan you never see the black bars with a 1.85:1
movie).
There are other (better) descriptions of what anamorphic means on the
net. Why don't you try asking in news:uk.media.dvd ? A subject line
such as ``What does anamorphic mean?'' should have the desired
results. 

Sound of me running quickly away:-)

--

Thanks for that and congratulations on a great game, I'm really enjoying Fur
Fighters.
Looks like MSR will be my next purchase as well. Back to the original
qustion though: why is the widescreen mode apparently in the cheat menu for
MSR?

----

"Nick Wiswell
Associate Producer
Bizarre Creations"

Aha, the guilty man - now you're for it ;) Why is the Widescreen setting
in MSR something you have to play half the game to win?!?!?! This is er,
strange.
I would really have liked their to be a widescreen option to have been
available from the beginning 8(
Still, ace game ;)

---

First I should say that I *love* Fur Fighters. It's a great game.
Playing the fluffmatch in the demo in a Toys 'R' Us months and months
ago convinced me I wanted a DC.
But the ``widescreen'' option is a regrettable mis-feature. It makes
nobody happy. And by the sounds of it it's because widescreen is
widely misunderstood. And that's perhaps to be expected as
broadcasters, TV manufacturers and DVD publishers have conspired to
make it as confusing as possible.

For example:

* Dreadful ``smart stretching'' modes on wide TVs (there are probably
hundreds if not thousands of people out there watching stretched
4:3 analogue broadcasts who are now convinced they are watching
widescreen TV).
* Wrongly labelled DVDs (that say enhanced for 16:9, but are not)
* 14:9 compromise broadcasts that don't fill *any* TV screen
* Nobody making it clear that the only source of (anamorphic)
widescreen material is DVD or digital TV (despite only a handful of
widescreen TVs having an integrated digital tuner)
* Widescreen meaning either letterboxed or anamorphic (or both)
* Legacy letterboxed widescreen material on VHS and analogue TV
broadcasts that mean your wide TV needs a `zoom' mode as well as
stretch.
* The irrational dislike of black bars (either at the top and bottom
or at the sides) when the aspect ratio of the material you are
watching does not match your display, leading to the above
mentioned `smart' stretch modes.
It's not widely understood that if you have a DVD player attached to
a 4:3 TV then your DVD player actually has to throw away nearly 25%
of the lines and fake up black borders at the top and bottom of the
screen if you watch an anamorphic disk. Some players do a good job
and interpolate a new set of lines, others just throw away every
fourth line and you get jaggy squashed looking pictures. I bet some
people have their DVD set up like that and then are using the zoom
mode on their wide TV and wondering why everyone says DVD is great
when it looks dreadful on their TV.

So I accept that the `widescreen' mis-feature in Fur Fighters (and by
the sounds of it MSR too) came about through lack of good information
about what anamorphic means and was an honest misunderstanding.
Damn. Someone handed me a coffee half way through that.

----

Geez. We are talking about anamorphic widescreen here.
In your widescreen modes you have to set your tv to 16:9 zoom mode. You'll
lose resolution as you just stated. In an anamorphic widescreen games the
resolution is still 640*480 but the image is squized. So the owners of the
widescreen tv's set their tv's stretch the image horizontally and you'll
have a full screen 16:9 game.
It's the same with dvd.
Try playing f355, toy commander or any other wide game on widescreen mode.
You won't have borders.
It's more processor intensive that way but certainly possible.
Looking forward to your reply on the matter.

----

I too then must apologise, as I am not 100% sure what the definition of
anamorphic Widescreen really is, maybe we should have called it "letterbox"
mode instead. (at least we did make the picture wider unlike some games we
could mention who do just either squish the picture or cut stuff off top and
bottom). The DC doesn't support widescreen per se so this is the only way we
could do it, and I got a bit pissed off because we had to spend ages
optimising the code to make it run smoothly with extra polys now visible at
the sides. The TV we tested it on did have a couple of annoying zoom modes,
but we only used the setting that didn't stretch the picture, just actually
cut off the top and bottom of the screen therefore removing the borders from
view.

Sorry for any ranting, glad you liked the game.

----

Here is a good "visual demo" of the whole widescreen/anamorphic thing,
after watching it most people go "ahhhhhhhh, I get it now". :)
http://www.dvdweb.co.uk/information/anamorphic.htm

---

Widescreen isn't something a console can support. It's in the games. And the
squishing you mention in some games is far better than the option in msr.
The squising (strange word) is anamorphic. You stretch it out on a widescreen
tv to get the correct ratio.

---

Having finally obtained this cheat, I thought that I'd be able to enjoy
correct ratios, even if there is a little cropped top and bottom , but
there's still a problem.
In my experience, the cheat is only active for one race - if you set it
to ON, do a race (where it is indeed widescreen), then return to the
cheat screen, the option is OFF again.
I can't believe this!! Do Bizarre really expect people to want to race
once in widescreen mode, just for fun, then return to normal play?
If anyone has had other experiences, let me know, but as it stands I
think it's ridiculous to have such a feature only available in this
way. As someone else says in this thread, are we expected to unlock
sound in a game using a cheat mode!!

The Making Of Metropolis Street Racer at timeextension.com

https://www.timeextension.com/features/the-making-of-metropolis-street-racer-the-origin-of-the-project-gotham-series

Bizarre confirming that Porsche, Honda & Quest Mode cheats are fake (Original ezboard topic 'Fact or Fiction': created on 1 February 2001. Original ezboard topic 'Please': created on 26 November 2001)

Staff postings are in bold

Original Archive.org link

Is the awesome roadster Honda S2000 really in the game?

I’ve just finished Street Racing mode—unlocked all cars and cheats—and I don’t see it... :(

---

It's not there :D

Would have liked it though... Damn nice car...

---

I'm sure it is...

---

That’s strange... The largest cheat site in North America is reporting that Honda S2000 and Porsche 911 are hidden in the game.

Quote:

Honda S2000: Successfully complete the game once in quest mode.

Porsche 911: Successfully complete the game twice in quest mode.

Source: GameWinners.com

---

Uuhh.... What's that?

Some exclusive for the US version perhaps?

---

“Huh... What’s [quest mode]? Some exclusive for the US version perhaps?” 

You’ve got me. Quest mode sounds like something from an RPG. ;)

But this is intriguing. Although I’ve unlocked the cars and cheats in Street Race mode, six tracks in each city are still locked! Maybe there’s a hidden chapter or mode...

---

or it could be another dreaded bug ;-)

---

Hehe, I also had some tracks left after completing the game. But I used the "Open all" cheat to unlock them, and did time trials so I got times on them. Then they stay unlocked when you're not using the cheat.

I basically did this only to get a total time ^_^

---

Honda S2000 (i love this car) in MSR ??

YES!, here is a screenshot:

---

Here's another one:

---

I'm afraid that in the final version of the game, it became fiction.

As you know, some car manufacturers imposed restrictions on the game - such as no pedestrians, no proper traffic, no one-way/no entry signs, the car not allowed to leave the ground, etc.

Sega were in discussion with Honda to include their cars in the game, but the additional restrictions they asked for would have compromised the game too much. Therefore it was with sadness that we had to remove all Honda cars from the game.

Sorry :(

Stubbette

---

Mmm... and the other one, the Porsche 911?

By the way, what's 'quest mode'?

---

That's fiction too, I'm afraid. I don't know who made up this 'quest mode' cheat, as it's been circulating for a while. But it is wrong - it says on some sites that you can 'buy' the car when you restart - which as you know, isn't the case in MSR.

Sorry again, folks!

Stubbette

---

Stubbette;

I find it very weird that such many restrictions were put on you in order to gain the car licenses... I mean, another certain series of car racing games on the PSX (oh damn am I discrete :D ) is crawling with Hondas, and that has them flying over crests like ever so many Wipeout ships.

Isn't that kind of contradictory?

Are the PR people at Honda recieving fat Sony kickback checks?

Doesn't anyone like to be mentioned together with "Sega"?

Is the earth really banana-shaped?

So many questions. Can they ever be answered?

---

*shock horror* Sony giving out bribes?! What's the world coming to?!!?! Hehe. I would of loved to have seen cars like the Robin Reliant or the Mitsubishi Midget. A comedy car league would of been brilliant on MSR. Missed opportunity. Actually, the New Beetle would of been great on MSR too...

One of these days all car manufactuers won't give a toss about damage to their cars and we can have MSR2 complete with damage zones! Debris on the road from crashes! Car bonnets being flung and damaging shop windows!!!

That reminds me of a cool game idea I once had - "F1 Apocolypse" - basically, F1 but set in the future where all those bloody courses are all knackered and decayed and damaged. All the drivers could drive around in F1 cars with Mad Max customisations... imagine Michael Schumacer with a tommy gun in his converted F1. Aw, I'm in the wrong job here... :P

---

Just as a matter of interest, you mentioned elsewhere that you are working on a game. Are you an amateur developer working on a MOD or a fully fledged, full time, this-is-my- job developer? :-)

Stubbette

---

AFAIK, he's a real life game developer! Probably either in Liverpool or North Wales, if I'm guessing correctly ;-)

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Of course!! You notice my baggy eyes from late nights and my boiling enthusiasm... and I'm from the North Wales division of the "illustrious" Jester Interactive! I'm working with a team named "Horny Dog" on a game for Dreamcast called Hellgate at the moment, and it's my first title and I'm loving it!

I'm an artist, and although it's a cool job, there's one word of warning - you will have very little time to play games, hence my MSR weekend last week, which was ace! Our website will be online on Feb 28th - www.hornydog.co.uk/ = there's a new Jester site too, but it's been touched by the nastines which is corporate pants, so I'm hoping our developer website will be anything but!

Oh, and I heard some of the guys at Bizarre were invited to the Music party a while back - you do realise Music 3 is on the horizon? Go on, hound [redacted] "I did the music to Wipeout, guv" Wright..! It's the least you can do, seeming he enjoys scaring the heck out of me in his fast yellow sports car. :)

All the best,

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Glad to see you're hard at it late at night - no rest for the wicked! It's amazing how big Jester's grown - we're still a little diddy 'amateur' developer ;-)

The Music party co-incided with Jez and the lads from Argonaut popping up to our offices. Tim sorted us out with a load of tickets and we turned up already steaming, after a grappa drinking contest at Est!Est!Est!

My long-standing memory of that party was sitting on the loo holding onto both sides of the cubicle to stop it spinning....

So how is [redacted]? Send him our love and wet sloppy kisses...

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Mmmmmm, anyway, somebody's got more comments on the gameplay?!

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Sorry, msrfreak - eeer. Oh, I found out that if you go r-e-a-l-l-y fast and then brake, then handbrake, turn right then immediately turn left, you'll do a 360! And that's truth, no lie :P

Back to developer chat... [redacted]'s okay, he's just weary of all the Music incarnations at the moment. He's managed to scare the crap out of me on several occasions with his stupidly fast sports car, even to the point where we argued with a 10 ton bin lorry... :P

Jester's scarily grown - there's too many people in the Liverpool office to recognise, let alone remember! Mold here is a nice friendly place where we all realise our common goal is overwork and underlove... I'm hoping our game will be out on Dreamcast, but I've just seen the new DC set top box and I'm scared..! Nooo! Keep it awaaay!!

I think [redacted]  misses the smallish-ness which used to be Jester... we're slowly turning into Sony. Not good at all. Back to moving dots and lines on a monitor for me... :P

Keep up the ace work,

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Please...

Okay, I know I probably suck at this, and what I am about to ask it very sad but, does anyone have or know of cheats? Please ANYTHING will do, maybe a cheat car? Or the tracks... come on, some one MUST know something - MUST! I know I'm sad and spare me the lecture on fair gameplay and all that $hit, but PLEASE!!! I NEED CHEATS FOR CARS AND TRACKS AND $HIT!!! - I know I am sad :(

Anything will help - ANYTHING!!! BOO HOO :\

:evil :evil :evil :evil :evil :evil :evil :evil :evil :evil

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Well, i'm sorry to tell you, but you are on your own!...

The only cheats in MSR are ones that you must earn. And the truth is, you become a better driver to be able to finish the game...........in turn...your get the cheats. But, the cheats are not what you may think. They are some new cars......not exotic ones......3 taxies, 3 buses and a lawnmower. there are someother cheats, like a new camera options, time of day option, bubble cheat....weird!.....

So start learing how to drive better and enjoy some of the great cars that await you.

Also another posting confirming the same thing

Original Archive.org link

To get all the tracks, Hold down .START. Durring the Intro...

to get two bonues cars .. Press , durring the intro . A ,B ,A ,UP ,DOWN ,Y ,LEFT ,X

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That cheat is utter moot.

Ive heard it before but the START at intro and all that, WTF.

I'm just trying to work my way through the game. I assume everyone knows the good ol' get millions of Kudos on FASTEST TIME Hotlap races?

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Hey, that's sounds like a great cheat... I'd like to say it works but... we never actually put anything like that it into MSR... unfortunately you have to earn all the extras you get... sorry... :rolleyes

Yeah... we've found out about the millions of Kudos stuff fairly soon after MSR was out... some things slip through test, especially when your up against tight release deadlines at the end of a project... bet ya can't do it on Gotham though... :smokin

Trent

PGR2

MSR Graphics (Original ezboard topic 'Graphics'. Created on 25 April 2001)

Staff posts are in bold

Original Archive.org Link

I got MSR the other day, why I didn't get it before puzzles me now. It looks amazing. What surprised me a bit, though I now remember having noticed it in screenshots, was the absence of MIP-mapping. Although it does cause some pixellation it is no worse than blurring and keeps the details in the distance. My question is, was it an artistic or technical decision not to use MIP-mapping?

I must give kudos (pun intended of course) to you guys for the visual appearence of the game, because the buildings and scenery feel HUGE. The skyscrapers in Tokyo really feel like scyscrapers and not like hollow matchboxes as in many other racing games. Racing in Tokyo at night was a very powerful experience, the sense of presence in this game is absolutely stellar.

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Hi Ho!

Belive it, there are mip maps!!! There must be... :) Ervery game use and NEED mip mapping, you don't have enough power to live without!!!

I never saw the mip maps (from msr) outside the game, bu I guess they done with love! First resize, and a litle paintshop (to redraw the importent details)...finsih!!!

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or i'm wrong

tell me if I'm on the wrong way :) thnx

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Hi,

on a cold January afternoon did we have a fireplace chat about that topic:

If you search a little more you should find also the thread about mipmapping. I don't think that BC will make another reply to yours...

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oki alright :)

btw. Know somebody the Car Polycount?

I guess about 1500?!

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Further findings

Well, I couldn't actually find the thread on MIP-mapping...

Anyway, I have noticed upon further examination that MSR does use MIP-mapping, but only for the most critical textures, such as gravel and the tiling of a tunnel wall in Tokyo. I guess they did indeed skip it for most textures so to preserve detail.

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Howdy doodly do,

I'll try and not ramble... too much to do for E3 and all that... anyway....

Yes... things are mip-mapped.... not everything though... and this was a combination of technical and artistic reasons... on the technical front... mip-mapping the tree textures were a real speed win for us based on the hardware architecture, so they were a must. The railings and fences on the other hand(which is where most of the problems occur) were tried... and the mip-mapping just made them look even worse... quite close into the distance they'd turn into horrible messes... it's a case of where it works... use it... where it doesn't... don't...

The other side of the coin was we didn't have enough video ram to mip-map everything either... if you let the artists go mad and build cities with that many textures... they're gonna fill up what precious memory you have pretty quickly... there's loads of unique textures on buildings... such is modelling real life... :(

Hope this answers your questions... and hopefully post-E3 we'll be able to respond to other stuff a little quicker than we currently do... it's just we're a tad busy at the moment... :)

Cheers,

Trent

Senior Programmer

Project Gotham (and MSR)

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It is amazing how much faster the frame rate does increase with mipmapping - on Hellgate we mipmapped a lot, and we did get a pretty dramatic increase in speed. Of course, video RAM gets decidedly low but that's the trade off you get.

I don't think the pavement barriers around the course on MSR are mipmapped - hence the "strobing" effect you get. Saying that, if they were mipmapped, you'd probably get a bit of a blurry mess halfway down the course. In some areas of San Francisco as well, you can tell many textures aren't mipmapped because of some strobing effects on brickwork and some of the skyscrapers.

Oh, I'm reading in many PS2 mags about the possibility of a PS2 MSR. Is this true? It certainly is the right genre for PS2 being a driving game and all... ^_^

Would you just do a straight port and limit the texture space, or chuck more polies in the cars, ooorrrr maybe use some of the city geometry from Project Gotham? The basic rule of thumb for DC and PS2 development is that Dreamcast has more textures to chuck around but less polies, but PS2 has more polies to chuck around and less textures.

Hope my wealth of development information gained from stress, pain and other such delights helps.. :)

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The cool thing is, you can well compensate for lower poly counts through good use of texturing, but you can never make up for N64-ish textures... Innit, Steve? :D

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Much as it pains me to think about MSR on PS2... *urk* I mean, Quake III Revolution on PS2 is also texture intensive. Oooh, look. Blurry N64 textures. Just like Mr. Sony said - "Graphics like Toy Story" ^_^

I'll think I'll watch some non-blurry DVDs.

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Is anybody wondering why MSR doesnt have full headlight effects? The headlights in the game only shine in front of the cars about 2 feet! I wonder why the headlights dont shine far into the distance, and onto objects? Maybe the Dreamcast couldnt handle it, although I dont see why it couldnt, since a lot of psx games used it! Or maybe the developers didnt have time to fine tune the effect! Thats the only thing I didnt like about the game, during the night races, I couldnt see a damn thing! Other than that, everything else was spectacular! Well, at least I get what I want on the X-Box version! 

Take care all.

MSR Modelling (Original ezboard topic 'MSR Modelling. Started on 17 January 2001)

Bizarre Creations's staff posts are in bold.

Original Archive.org Link

In reply to the question in the 'Meet the Bizarre Guys' thread, the modelling in MSR was done using SoftImage, with Photoshop used for the textures. The additional data for the game was done in our own package, MetGP, which allowed us to add in start/finish/split lines, cameras, AI data, start grids, etc...

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Merci Merci Stubette

So you DO use more SoftImage than 3DS Max...

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Hello!

What LOW POLY MODELING with SI? Or LOW POLY with 3DsMax *g*

I believe LW are better for this work! I use it every day, it's fast and great :) !

Try it!!!

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We've generally used SoftImage for most of our modelling and animation, but do evaluate other packages at regular intervals. We do also have our own in-house packages which can be used for large scale modelling, such as a complete game-creation system used to model Fur Fighter levels (known as 'tubby custard'!).

What we have to weigh up in changing to a new package is the time saved by the other packages versus the time it would take for all the artists to relearn the new software.

Thanks for the tipoff though - we'll get the artists onto it ;-)

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Modeling :)

Yeah, the time!!!

Do it fast and dirty or good and slow!

I know this. But work ervery gfx artist at BC with SI?

Whats are if a gfx-artist want a other programm (si, maya, 3dsmax.....)???

Can you tell me how much polygons one MSR car have, please?

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Once started - I'll never stop! S. started me up!

Yes -- but how did the team model the cars? I guess they have to follow strictly car manufacter guidelines (as stated in the license?).

The dashboard/in car textures and external badges are also done with great care... It's a product of quality!

Thanks in advance for your reply, and a great x to Stubbette!

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You can model a low poly car (for realtime games) very fast, about 2days for one car. Depends on the Poly Count! (I believe the other guys will tell you the same!)

I've read in the msr credits that only one guy modelt the car's!

But I must criticism that some cars not looks like the real one, sorry!!!

ok thtas enough. :)

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I'll get an artist to post about the 'how it's done', etc.!

As for why ALL SoftImage, imagine the nightmare of 10-15 artists on a team all working on different packages to each other - it would be a logistical nightmare! Not only do the programmers need to import the data in the same format from the artists (each program has a different data format which would need to be decoded), but the artists all swap around and help each other out too.

We work in the same was as the other games companies we know - generally they take a policy decision via their senior artists as to what package is being used across the team. So if someone looking for a job ONLY wants to use Max, for example, then they'd have to find a company that uses Max, I suppose. Most of our guys had no SI experience when they came to us, but are more than happy to use it now....

HTH, Stubbette

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I had also the feeling that the game industry was dropping 3DS, and using more SI. Their support for the programming world is better too.

But it's still painful for 3DS, 5 years ago I had a passion: 3DSR4 - those days are gone now. Thanks God! Without the evolution of these softs, we should'nt have a MSR! I'm lucky ;)

Don't forget to reply to my 'how it's done' post - I'm very interested!

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Please, don't use Max. I use it every day and it's a PAIN. Bugged to heck, etc. etc. Check out [redacted] to see what our entire Max-using office make of it! We're hoping to drift into Maya but that's never going to happen. Max is nice and cheap. :)

One thing I'm fascinated by is the fact the poly counts of the cars in MSR are roughly the same as the poly counts in GT3 on PS2, except, of course, GT3 cheats by having blackened windows and no drivers to produce as well.

Hmmm. I think I need to hint again..

*cough* MSR 2 *cough*

Keep up the ace work, gang!

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Hey [redacted]

that's quite a list of complaints!! Once again, I'm very sorry for mentioning 3DS - I think that Autodesk is still surviving because of AutoCAD.

Don't ask me how the PS2 will do!

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Re: MSR Modelling....

Hiya.

I noticed that some of the later car models in my MSR ("buggy" first PAL master) seem to be thrown together in a bit of a rush. Like the Celica GT Four, where the driver only has one arm (or was that some other car? my memory is slipping) and some other cars with missing polys on the driver... Was this a matter of deadline induced slips or are they (highly unlikely) 3Dengine draw bugs?

Also, did the "glowing brake discs" function get dumped entirely? I have yet to see it in the game... It must have been a late call anyway, since it's visible in the intro movie...

One last question. How do you guys feel about the CRI software Mpeg decoder that the DC uses? I mean, it basically makes all the DC FMV look like shite, since you have to compress it more to make it run better. I'm usually an FMV basher, since I think realtime intros and cutscenes are more suitable to display the machine's power and the coders abilities (I mean, even the MegaCD could show FMV), but sometimes when FMV is a better or cooler option, I think they should at least look good.

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Re: MSR Modelling....

Like we're talking in a realtime chat ;) Perhaps bizarre can start an official MSR IRC channel?!

Well, I'm driving the Clio V6 (my fav - a REAL race bomb - with REAL physics) with the steering wheel fixed in the passenger's airbag...

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Hi guys,

Just thought I'd give you some info on how we modelled some of our stuff. I worked on MSR for about 18 months and during my time on that team I got to model just about everything from buildings/cities to cars to statues to drivers. The cars were mainly the work of one guy but all told there was about 8 of us that built them, with one guy doing the textures. Initially, we rotascoped splines from schematic drawings provided by the manufacturers (in Softimage). We then had to turn these 2D splines of each view (side, front, back and top) into 3D splines. This was done by, for example, taking a spline from the front view, viewing it from the top view, and moving its points to make it line up with the corresponding spline in that view. We only work on half a car and then mirror it when its finished. The result is a 3D spline shape of the car, which then acts as a template for stitching in polys. Naturally, a lot of tweaking is involved and constant use of research photos to achieve the finished model. That's it for the high detail model. Then the other levels of detail are derived from that one by removing edges and vertices until the model falls under the relevant poly limit. Screenshots and renders of the high detail wireframe models were used to match the textures up perfectly. We also duplicated the car body so that the programmers could use that to render the specular highlights.

So now you know. I've just given away all our secrets. Well, maybe not all of them.

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Car modeling!

What!

You have model High poly cars for the textures!?

I guess you can finish a Car model faster if you create the car textures with a 2d paint programme (like photo shop!)!!!

Sorry but I would do it so!

But why can I nowhere read anything about the poly count, are this a secret?

regards, [redacted]

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Hello,

Im not sure if this has been said already,

But the textures on the cars where in fact hand drawn.

No high res model was constructed (other than for the front-end - using the same textures as the in-game cars)

The splines traced from the schematics were merely used as a guide for constructing the in-game meshes.

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So you did get a little help (in 2D) from the manufacturers - of course in SI format.

Again, you (and the team) modelled the cars with such precision. Anyway, the Clio V6 (which isn't an easy one to model) is simply gorgeus (read: better than the model used in GT).

Hey, what happened with the high detail renderings?! Desktop wallpapers? Can I have one? ;)

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Thx Max - keep posting

Yes, indeed, the front-end models are great. Better than the in-game cars... ;)

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I've forgotten...

... to give alot of Kudos to Stubbette, she's great!

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Hey, Stubbette are you a member of the oh so popular IRC channel (don't wonna name it - you know what I mean)?

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Re: I've forgotten...

Dang! Found out again!! Yes, I must admit I do pop in there sometimes when time permits....;)

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IRC channel

Ahaha... Seems like Stubbette's busted.

What IRC Network btw? =DDD

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See ya later in IRC chat... Don't name it, it's between you and me ;)

Thanks for your (and the BC team's) sympathy!