MSR Developer Chat (from 2011)

In 2011, Bizarre Creations closed down along with their website and forum.  Shortly after, a new forum called 'Strange Developments' was created where ex-Bizarre Creations staff and fans hung out briefly.  The new forum wasn't around for long, probably due to the ex-staff finding new jobs and people just going their separate ways.  It was on this particular forum forum that I asked a question about MSR physics and ended up having correspondence with a staff member.  I haven't released it publicly until now (I've sent it to a few people privately over the years) however it's now a good time to do so.  

My questions/responses are in light blue and the staff replies are in yellow. Nothing said is 'industry sensitive'.

Firstly I'd like to give my condolences regarding the closure of Bizarre Creations. As I'm basically a retro gamer, I never experienced their later work (PGR3 onwards) but games like MSR, Fur Fighters and PGR1/2 were great titles and I'm glad to have played them. I hope everyone involved with Bizarre finds happiness in their new careers.

Here is an old Japanese promotional video for MSR: 

The last 5 seconds are the most interesting. Although this is an early version, the car gets serious air climbing the San Francisco hill! If any of the developers are watching, why were the cars grounded in the final version? It doesn't make MSR any less fun for me but it would be interesting to know the reasons why.

Finally I've know I've asked this before on Bizarre's own forum but did anybody take a copy of the old MSR rankings hosted on Dreamarena. I know it's a longshot as this service closed over 9 years ago but it would be great to see what lap times the best players achieved. I have already asked Sega but they are unable to help.

Many thanks in advance.

it kept us from having to solve various physics/collision problems at the time,e.g. what to do when the cars overturn..

The physics model used exaggerated moments of inertia to stylize the sliding behaviour. I figured it was a game about cornering,laptimes, driving on flat surfaces, not a stunt driving game with jumps etc so I approximated appropriately .. S.F. wasn't something I accounted for. Needed to ensure that physics/collision/AI update was always negligable CPU load compared to graphics, back on those machines the cpu spent most of its time transforming & clipping geometry..

Hi all, as I hadn't received a reply in nearly 3 months I thought no-one was able to answer my question. Just returned here now on the off-chance it had. :)

I appreciate the response, I always thought the reason for the lack of airbourne cars was down to the car manufacturers themselves. I guess you had responsibilty for the physics in MSR? If so I'd like to thank you as MSR has one of the most fun Time Attack modes I've ever played! I know it's probably not what you intended - after all MSR was meant to be all about the Kudos - however stripping the game down to just a fast car and course unlocks the games enduring appeal. It's the reason I'm still playing the game in 2011!

On a sidenote I think the handling in the demo version of MSR (found on the disk with the Official DC magazine) has more in common with PGR 1/2 than MSR itself!

MSR was also the reason I got my Dreamcast back online last year to upload/download ghost cars. I've written an FAQ, made some Youtube videos and even made a webpage that DC users can download my ghosts from. If you are interested the links are below:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/dreamcast/197914-metropolis-street-racer/faqs/60758 (some info outdated)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soKJIF7FEsA&playnext=1&list=PL24E648DEB802C6F6

http://msr.netii.net/ (Now Offline). 

PS I still have a working MSR watch that came with my first copy in November 2000:

RJAY63 wrote:

always thought the reason for the lack of airbourne cars was down to the car manufacturers themselves.

Now that you mention it, that was indeed the case. Justifies why I approximated it.

But san-fransisco came as a suprise and we didn't have time to change the game system - the game was already delayed. we could have done it (we had airborne in f197 and in a 3DFX tech demo we did after F1) but any change late on is bad.

RJAY63 wrote:

I guess you had responsibilty for the physics in MSR?...

I know it's probably not what you intended - after all MSR was meant to be all about the Kudos - however stripping the game down to just a fast car and course unlocks the games enduring appeal.

on the contrary, to me Kudos was an afterthought,

I got into doing driving games back in 1995 for 2 reasons [1] the fun physics of car handling and [2] the graphics engines on the then new 3d consoles & the associated tools for building tracks/scenery ... so thanks for appreciating the game boiled down just to the bits I did & that mattered to me :)

All old hat now. An arcadey-driving sim wont set the world alight in 2011 but I was coincidently doing another car physics model as part of my new experiments.

Hence the coincidence in seeing the old nostalgic posts. I dont remember all the numbers but I remember the formulas exactly and the reasoning behind it. But my focus remains on the search for new ideas ...

Thank you for your message. MSR's handling has a 'coin-op racer' feel and as a fan of titles like Daytona, Wangan Midnight MT and Outrun 2 SP it is something I appreciate. It's a lot more fun to drift in MSR than it is in the PGR games although PGR 1/2 had much better Kudos systems.

I still have the playable demo of MSR that came with the official DC magazine and think the handling here had more in common with PGR than the final version of MSR itself! For example in the demo, drifting could be instigated by releasing the accelerator; something you couldn't do in the final version of MSR but could do in the later PGR games. Do you know why this change happened?

Finally this is a longshot but do you have an archive of the old Dreamarena rankings for MSR, specifically Time Attack? I know it was possible to hack the VMU and alter times (so any ranking may be distorted) but it would be interesting to see what the best players achieved. I have already approached Sega but they said they are unable to help.

Thanks once again for a great game!

nope, dont have ANY old materials. all owned by others and lost.

I wish I had my old sourcecode, but by the letter of the law i can't. sold my soul there. Just memories of bits in my head.

>>"For example in the demo, drifting could be instigated by releasing the accelerator; something you couldn't do in the final version of MSR but could do in the later PGR games. Do you know why this change happened? "

now I dont remember specifically, but you're describing trailing throttle oversteer & load-transfer, i.e. the way the pitching affects grip front & back.

When i started with it realistic- producing the effect you describe - i usually got the feedback that it was too hard (or numerically unstable) :) so you put assists / clamps / tweeks in to make it easier (and more stable).

I might have endstopped it? i.e set an artificial limit between front & rear grip.

what i DO remember is that with load transfer in 3d physics the car could become quite unstable i.e. going over polygon bumps could de-stabilize it by throwing sudden shocks through the springs, spinning the car out because the front dug in or the back lifted off.

It changed alot regularly, fine line between 'too hard' 'too realistic' 'too fake' and 'fun'.

it was difficult to balance it so that it could both slide AND be controllable / catchable.

With F1, I had load transfer (&grip affected by wings) but NOT calculated though the actual 3d springs; with MSR it was true 3D physics, which i first did in a demo for 3dfx.

In later xbox/360 games, the world mesh could be smoother, and 60fps update=better springs. DC was just 200mhz with CPU moving every polygon so only a tiny fraction of that cpu is left for physics.. then 700mhz xbox with hardware TnL - much easier. then 3ghz xbox 360 'steamroller'. pgr 4 even moved physics onto spare cores. spoilt compared to the early days.

Even though more realistic there are still some weird effects in both games, the actual physics model did change, with different approximations.

>>"MSR's handling has a 'coin-op racer' feel and as a fan of titles like Daytona, Wangan Midnight MT and Outrun 2 SP it is something I appreciate. "

MSR is still based on slightly more realistic physics model but with stylized numbers, compared to daytona etc. sega games & other coin ops games often used 'pivot steering' (ridge racer =worst offender!) I think whereas mine were based on per-wheel forces. (i wouldn't criticize those amazing pioneering Sega coin-ops though! don't get me wrong there).

The so called 'coinop feel' was down to the car holding maximum grip past the limit & other assists over the real physics, wheras a real car loses grip when you slide, a greater tendancy to just spin out when you make a mistake.

I'm just dealing with this again this very minute, messing with the self-aligning-torque by a different method to try and make slides more holdable.

It is very nostalgic looking at the old videos, thanks for the uploads :)

Firstly thanks again for your interest in our old work . :)

I was looking at one of your comments "no more braking sliding more" and my memory might not be as good as I think, I seem to remember I might have actually INCREASED GRIP WHEN BRAKING, jogged by your comments.

My question is , could you confirm this for me ? hard to tell how. Let me know if you think thats the case from how you drive it, do you get a different cornering radius.. one might be able to measure it in video footage - horizon turn rate vs speedometer, accelerating vs braking

[i'd always wanted to leave physics-debug in with grip arrows etc as ingame option:) but there was no interest ]

In my postbizarre physics model, my rough values "by eye alone" gave me 2.5g cornering*(!!!) and I've just reduced it to 1.7 after actually looking at numbers.

But I'm thinking I have an instinctive preference for cars with >2g cornering and it wouldn't suprise me if thats what MSR was actually doing when you brake.

Why not increase grip ALL THE TIME? - because it gives you mad 0-60 times. my current virtual car is doing 0-60 in about 2 seconds. :)

I remember the amazing f355 having a feel of being able to hardly turn.

I came from the F1 game where cars can have 4g cornering due to downforce typically, so I was 'spoilt' :) and remember being shocked by realistic simple road cars that manage mere 1-1.3g cornering. boring..

Now with you talking about 'arcadey feel' that might be what did it more so than the 'extended peak grip'... its' a gratuitous Hack that enables people who dont like braking to get round corners.

I would like to be able to get an arcadey feel without needing such extreme measures as grip scale with braking .. I prefer increased grip all the time or adding virtual downforce.. ( a downforce that you preseve when going sideways)

I did get nostalgic after acti closure and looked at the whole of bizarre as one continuous act F1 onward. (its' so scary to see peeps calling F1,MSR 'retro games' - which they are now - because the whole 15 years was just one continous 'blur' for me)

Thanks for your reply. In the playable demo the normal brake has a limited role when cornering; it's really just used to slow your car beforehand. In the final version however, the best way to take a corner is to turn and brake together while alternating the throttle; if it's a sharp turn you may need to add a touch of handbrake or release the accelerator completely. The final version is certainly a lot easy to drive than the demo; you can compare the two videos for the same course below taking into account different cars were used in each:

Demo: 

Final (Retail Version):

Hope this helps... :)

Thanks for the info - that confirms it.

>>"the best way to take a corner is to turn and brake together while alternating the throttle"

- that 's the unintended consequence discovered by players of my increasing grip while you brake.

I did that to avoid that 'unable to turn' feeling that you get when you go from an F1 car to say an MX5 (which is what i'd basically done, F1->MSR). I'm still shocked by it when i play other 'realistic' style racers.

Alternating throttle&brake is really messy .. thats' not what I intended :(

Perhaps I should have put in mild F1 style downforce instead, exaggerated to kick in at low speeds.

Damn where's that time machine so I can go back and fix it!

1.5-2g cornering is still not as mad as 4g F1 but much more fun than reality. Reality is a bit crap usually, which is why we have games to escape with :)

Thanks for your response, glad I could help. On a side note you may wish to check out these links showing Bizarre doing some French TV spots for MSR (see my old blogpost 'MSR Early Videos' to view these).